In todays Dayton Daily News, there is an article about Dr. Wright and Mike Slaughters Blog is quoted in the article. The article said Sen Obama is being criticized for not leaving that church. I remember back when Mike bought the BMW and people were leaving GUM. That whole thing didn't seem right to me. I didn't understand where everybody seemed to have the right to judge his actions, I felt that was between him and his family and his own group of peers. I've never said this very well. It just doesn't come out right, but I don't think I go to GUM because of Mike the person. I go to GUM because I feel I have grown in my relationship with God and I feel that is in part at least, because of the word spoken there, which a large part happens to be spoken through Mike. I know that doesn't make sense and I wish I could explain it better. I just don't expect Mike not to be human, I don't expect him not to make mistakes. I don't think of him as God. I think keeping that all that in perspective keeps me from judging him or thinking I even have the right to. However seeing how so many are so mad over Dr. Wright I wonder what would Mike have to say or do before I left my church that I have been attending over 20 years. I hope I would have discernment in recognizing any action or word that is in direct contradiction to the Bible and recognize when it was time to leave but I pray for Mike and his family all the time as well as all the leaders of my church and their families, hoping that the possibility of something like that ever happening is absolutely zero.

I suppose if there is serious moral compromise, or serious scriptural error being taught that a person might be justified in leaving a church. But, I wonder, what would happen if instead, people decided to stay, lovingly confront, and commit to pray, and give God both time and permission to act, what would happen? Fred Gillenwater taught a class years ago about offenses. The word offense coming from the word in Greek, Skandalon (sp?) being the 'place in a trap where the bait is laid.' I thought that was very telling...the bait of Satan. We often can't help having a gut response to things, but if we would take the time to give that to God..pray through..give Him time to work..we would probably be amazed at what He would do. And instead of a church split, maybe we all would make a quantum leap forward in our maturity, and our leaders would be blessed. I'm longing to see that Bride show up. Lisa

I went and read the article online Suzanne. I'm still not buying the fiery prophet thing. If that's true, then Jackson and Sharpton would qualify as fiery prophets, and I think it's all just divisivness, some try to hide it and some don't bother. You know, we had a music minister at GUM once that taught unity in such a way that was really divisive. He created two camps in the church through his teaching. A lot of people thought he was super spiritual, charismatic, gifted...but in reality he was manipulative, and in some ways very sick in his spirit. I prayed and prayed and prayed. I finally left the worship team, told my leadership what he was teaching( I don't think I was the only one). They didn't even have a chance to deal with it, as he took off and just disappeared and wouldn't respond to calls even from the school asking where his daughter was. Finally we heard he moved I think to Texas. Some of his followers left the church when he did still not seeing what he was about. Some of them would have called him a prophet also. But the reality was, he was divisive. I think Divisivness is an anger and control issue.
Here is what the Word has to say about it.
Rom 16:17-18

17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people
(from New International Version)


Titus 3:9-11

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11 You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
(from New International Version)

Those are pretty strong words. I don't think Wright needs to apologize for his feelings. They are what they are. But to stir the church up in divisivness is to me a scary thing to do. I wish the pastor of Omega Baptist would have elaborated a little more on his thoughts that Wright was prophesying in some way most people wouldn't understand outside the black church. I'd like to understand if that's true. L

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about Lisa. The people who left the church because one man left, I'm sure they thought they knew the entire story but if they truly did, would they have done so? Did they think they following a man or a principle or really God? I don't think it could have been all three. The church is put in a difficult position because if it's a church of character it's not going to pull anyone through the mud but at the same time so many think they know what's going on but only know one side. I've been trying to give Dr. Wright the benefit of the doubt but that is very hard. The more I read the harder it gets and so I do start to get concerns regarding the candidate associated with him. Is he following out of loyalty, out of shared beleifs or just following blindly. I guess I'm no different than anyone else, I don't know the circumstances Dr Wright has experienced that made him preach so much anger, i don't know the foundation for what he said to even understand and I find it hurtful. I've known people who I thought with all my heart dearly loved God but whose actions seemed completely as far away from God as you could imagine. It's interesting to me that you can love God so much and be filled with so many bad feelings that don't reflect God at the same time.

"It's interesting to me that you can love God so much and be filled with so many bad feelings that don't reflect God at the same time. "
That's why we need a savior, eh?
Anytime we follow a leader instead of Christ, I think we will do things like that. Mike is my teacher, my mentor in many ways, and my pastor/(protector in the spiritual sense.) But I am responsible for myself. I can't blindly follow him, but allow his teaching to challenge me to take up my bible and examine the truth for myself. And If, for example, he was preaching that Moslems were the enemy as some church's do that are embroiled in politics, I'd have a strong word with him, and then I'd pray my brains out for him. But I made a commitment, a covenant with Ginghamsburg to seek God for the prosperity, and health of the body there, and serve out my call under it's authority. Unless I hear God say "go"...I ain't goin nowhere! And God is fully able to deal with Mike's heart. I figure if God is showing me something is wrong in the church, it's because He wants to change it, heal it, fix it. And since he chooses to work through imperfect humans, of which I am HIGHLY qualified,(grin)then he must want me to bind what's wrong and loose what's right and call forth those things that are not as though they are. Don't you just LOVE that about God???? I don't think for a minute, saying you agree Jeremiah Wright's words were racist and the antithesis of Christian values, that God is anxious to judge him for saying those things. I think evil men may have wanted to use those words to condemn him with, but I think behind it all is God waiting to see if someone will respond in merciful prayer for an angry brother, who is probably justified in his feelings, but has allowed anger and bitterness to dominate and enslave him. And bitterness always defiles us and those around us. I was talking with a friend, and didn't get why Obama was being painted with the same brush, unless he was fully aware and agreed with his statements which he said he didn't. But as I thought about that today, I thought of Proverbs, which talks about those we associate with being so important. And how if we hang with people who are offended easily, or have short tempers, we're likely to learn those traits and become like them. So there is some justification for asking Obama questions about his association.

Hey you two,
I am just commenting briefly on this subject because I've got some things here at home to do. I think it's probably time to leave a place when you've prayed you're heart out and confronted lovingly but see consistent bad fruit being birthed in your spirit and those around you from what you're hearing primarily if the person has a prophetic gifting because I think that may have potential for more damage as it involves so much movement in the spirit. It would probably benefit any church to hear more from those identified with prophetic and teaching gifts as I believe manifests more of the multifacetedness and aspects of who God is.
It's kind of like the concept of not eating exactly the same thing every day and only that. It doesn't really give the body what it needs to be as healthy as it could. The apostles used to lay hands on those who came to Christ and were baptized and then the Holy Spirit decided the gifts given him/her. Apart from any schooling, status, sex, color or anything else(that's not to say that He doesn't give us gifts that complement who we already are or the talents and aptitudes we have in the natural. He just doesn't have to. It's up to Him), He decides how to use us.
I think when the focus is on primarily one person, it's unhealthy because it places too much on that one person to be in terms of people's reliance on that one person's perspective rather than having several who have a unity in what they're hearing and then sharing it for confirmation also within the body.
Sometimes, I think we want someone to idolize in a way. We don't know how to function sometimes in relationship to God and others but we're kind of all that way when we are young in the faith.
Gum is not really in the same category as Dr. Wright. Yeah, I know the whole BMW thing (who doesn't). Trouble with being in the spotlight. All your crap is sort of public. Not so fun. But that's just the way it is. I love God. I love GUM. I love Mike the person. I love all those who give there lives everyday for us. To make effort to guide us in the right way. Well, I guess that wasn't a brief comment. sorry.
I would still actually be there at GUM but our circumstances necessitated a change and I'm not sure yet God's will for us specifically in terms of church. I know that when I sent a prayer request to several churches that my daughter is missing, no one so much as even responded except for Matt at GUM. And, he responded two times. He is even checking back to see how things are going. That says a lot I think...don't you? love, michaiah

Oh I wasn't trying to compare GUM with Dr. Wrights church. I love GUM and I think I'm going there for the right reasons. Mikes spiritual guidance is a big part of that but as a whole there are alot of spiritual leaders there who don't know me but I've listened to their story and I've prayed for through the years. I pray for them because they are important to me, though I don't know them personally and I pray for them because if they would fall it would affect so many.

Lisa you wrote....I made a commitment, a covenant with Ginghamsburg to seek God for the prosperity, and health of the body there, and serve out my call under it's authority. Unless I hear God say "go"...I ain't goin nowhere! And God is fully able to deal with Mike's heart. ........I just love your heart and I love your words. Thank you thank you thank you.

Michaeh, I do hope your daughter has been found. When your child is hurting there is nothing more excrutiating.

I'm not sure of what gifts God gave me, I think organization is probably one. Some of my favorite verses are... I know the plans I have for you, plans to help you and not to harm you (paraphrasing). I try to remember that every so often at work. It's easy to remember however, when I walk into GUM. I do beleive God has lead me there.

Mike has never said hateful things. If he's going to err, he'll err on the side of grace as he's said many times. As far as I'm concerned, we couldn't pay him enough for the job he does, and the people he puts up with. How would you like to be in charge of a dysfunctional family that large!! HA! I didn't care when he had the BMW...he's a motorhead...he just liked the car. So what. Later, it became unimportant to him, just as we grow and things become unimportant to each of us. I don't know why people treat him as if he's already "there" spiritually. He's gifted, and God uses him in a mighty way, but he's on the path as we are. And he openly shares that with us in sharing his sin and mistakes. That's what gives me the hope that God can use me in spite of myself. I'm grateful to be at Ginghamsburg, grateful that's where God called me. We might have weak area's as every church does but it's a healthy body....maybe a few aches and pains here and there..but healthy. HA. Lisa

I know that when I sent a prayer request to several churches that my daughter is missing, no one so much as even responded except for Matt at GUM. And, he responded two times. He is even checking back to see how things are going. That says a lot I think...don't you?
I'm glad someone responded to that. And it makes me think. I don't respond to every prayer request we get because it doesn't seem like I would have time to do that. The other church's may have prayed for your request but just not responded. However, the importance of responding is obvious. At Ginghamsburg, that would be a full time job, but I'm glad God moved Matt to respond to yours Michaiah. But it makes me realize an area of faithlessness in my own life. I need to just respond, and let God redeem the time. When someone is hurting, it just needs to be the priority. Have you heard anything about your daughter?

Suzanne, have you ever done the strengthsfinder class? I will guarantee one of your top strengths is Empathy. Your tender heart displays that in obvious ways. You can get the book and do it on your own if you don't want to do the class. Lisa