(video)

Carolyn: The first year of marriage, the fact that we were basing it on ministry and not each other really had impact, and that disillusionment in the first year laid the groundwork for a lot of years of just co-existence and real sadness. When I say ministry, I don't mean Jesus, because if we had focused our relationship on Jesus, I don't think that would have happened. We focused it instead on serving him and things got a little out of whack. Our relationship with Christ helped some with the disillusionment, but I still had years of numbness in terms of, "Where do I get what I need relationally?" I had had years of crying out to God asking, "If you are the God that can bring someone out of the grave, surely can't you bring a relationship back?"  And I was not seeing any progress. We came to a point; it was June 1 of 1992 when we just came face to face and I said, "Michael, if this is supposed to go on, we're going to have to make a choice." At that point, we made a decision that God had called us together, that he had ordained our marriage regardless of the mistakes that we'd made, regardless of where we had put our loyalties, whether it was with the church or whatever, that he had given us to each other first, after himself. That's when things started turning around. So, it's been a long time coming; it's been 25 years. But I can honestly say since June of 1992, there has been a total upswing and I love my marriage! I love my husband!

(end video)  

Mike: Can you believe that was filmed 11 years ago? Now it's going to be almost 36 years. We shot that piece for Easter in 1997, and most of you have not seen that. It amazes me what God can do in relationships.

If you are brand new with us this week, we are spending a whole month talking about relationships and all of the dimensions, but the family is God's most important design for the formation of human personality. Many of us in this room struggle with intimacy, as we have in our own marriage, because we have had dysfunction in our homes. So what we want to do as the people of God, with humility, is realize that all of us in this room have messed up or have been messed up in some capacity. We're not here to condemn, but we're a community of people who, together, are committed to healing.

We're going to look at what the Bible says about marriage. Open your Bibles to Ephesians 5:21. I have a confession to make. Some of you will remember in the late 1980s we were doing a teaching, a series, on the Book of Ephesians, and we got to this place and I had to quit. We stopped before we got to verse 21 because I said if I wasn't living it, I couldn't teach it. So, I can teach it now. This is the first time in almost 29 years of ministry at Ginghamsburg Church that I'm teaching on this passage with my wife. Verse 21, "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." Wow! Everything begins right there. "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now, as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

Carolyn: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, people have never hated their own bodies, but they feed and care for them just as Christ does the church, for we are members of his body. For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery, but I am talking about Christ and the church."

Mike: "However, each one of you must also love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband." I want us to look at verse 33. In marriage, we see that the man and the woman bring two specific needs to every marriage, and those to needs are different. It says that the woman comes with the need to be loved and a man comes to a marriage relationship with the need to be respected. Carolyn, from the woman's perspective, what does it mean that you need to be loved? What does love look like?

Carolyn: I think there are different ways of expressing love. There is a book out called The Five Love Languages. But in the New Testament, love is not an emotion. Love or a feeling of love is an action; it's doing the right thing toward the person that you hold in high regard. So for me, love is demonstrated in acts of service.

Mike: I think for a lot of times from a man's perspective, I even remember when we've had fights and stuff, I think love is demonstrated through affection, but you are saying it's not demonstrated through affection.

Carolyn: No, I want you to do the right thing toward me. There have been many examples in our relationship going all the way back to when we were first married and going to seminary that you were as concerned about me completing my Master's degree as you were your own. I have never had - and I know this is a true blessing - I have never had to worry about financial provision even when we were young and poor, early in ministry. Those are big; that's macro. It's the little things too. Like the other night I was just, I was toast, done, cooked. I was out of it.

Mike: It's like when you sound mean when you're that way. Well, I mean you know how we do that and it's . . . I'm sorry, go ahead.

Carolyn: We'll get to respect in a minute.

Mike: Cut that part out of the tape! Go ahead.

Carolyn: You know how there is a certain routine you go through before you get to bed and I was so exhausted, I thought, "I can't even do this." Part of my routine every night is taking care of the dog, and without saying anything, all of a sudden the dog was taken care of and was upstairs ready to go to bed. And then that little stinker, the dog, awoke at 2:30 in the morning and wanted to go back outside and you got up and didn't even ask or anything, you just took it upon yourself to take care of the dog. That was huge to me, small to you all, maybe, but huge to me.

Mike: Women can you identify with that? Is that love? Sometimes men and women are on two different wavelengths about what love is all about. For me, what love means, where a man needs respect, the best way I can say it is I need it verbalized from you, like honor. I want to be a hero, and it's important from a male's perspective, I think. Often I say to Carolyn, "Are you proud of me?" It doesn't matter how many accolades I get. I'm amazed sometimes, like when a magazine comes out and says something about me or whatever, and that's just like, "Wow!" But what really matters to me is that you really think I'm all that and more. What others think is nice, but it's what you think. So when I go off to Darfur and places like that, I want you to say to our children, "Your dad is a hero. Sylvester Stallone doesn't have anything on your dad."

Carolyn:  I was thinking Harrison Ford, but…

Mike: Yeah, I can relate - Harrison Ford, I thinks he's like 66 or 67, doing this last Indiana Jones thing. Men, can any of your relate that? Especially guys in this age group? When I was a young husband and your parents would say things about me, I would want you to defend me. Really tell them what a great guy I was. I need to hear that verbalized respect and I want Carolyn to tell me, I don't want to read it in magazines. I love getting nice e-mails and letters from you all, but more than anything in the world, I want her to believe it and tell me and tell my children. Before I went to Darfur the first time, we had a lifelong dream to build a cabin on a mountain. So before I left, we bought land on top of that mountain. I said to her, "Carolyn, doesn't every little girl dream of a prince who will build her a castle on a mountain and then go off and fight the evil dragon? That's what I'm doing, Carolyn, that's what I'm doing."

Carolyn: And I said, "You've been reading too much Wild at Heart. But he is…Michael, you are my hero.

Mike: Thank you. This past Thursday night I spoke to our Radiate Group, which is 20somethings in the church. One young woman, who is a chemical engineer major at University of Dayton, asked me the question, "Mike, what do your think about what it says in Colossians and Ephesians about this thing that women or wives are supposed to submit to their husbands." So, Carolyn, when you look at this passage, and you even did graduate work on it at the University of Kentucky, what does this mean to you?

Carolyn: First of all, I have to say I was the original no submission girl! There was not going to be any Ephesians 5 in my wedding ceremony, thank you very much!

Mike: And there wasn't. She took it out.

Carolyn: But you know what, over the years I have really grown in understanding the word and what Paul was trying to do there. Paul's over-arching principle is in verse 21, submit one to another. But then he got gender specific and what does that look like to submit? He was talking about, what does unconditional love look like? To me, it looks like acts of service. But what does unconditional respect look like? Most of us look at Ephesians 5 as submission being something almost like I don't want to be beaten down; I don't want control taken away. But to me, submitting to him is actually showing unconditional respect. So that even when I feel unloved, my responsibility is to still respect him unconditionally. It means respect the person and know you are going to have to deal with the behavior. It's not - I love my husband, but he does all this crazy stuff. It should be, respect to me is, I love my husband and. Yes, there's the crazy stuff, but the crazy stuff is maybe what makes him who he is. That doesn't mean being co-dependent; it doesn't mean laying down what you think; it becomes a cooperative thing. There is a book out called Love And Respect by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs that is really excellent and he talks about getting into what he calls a crazy cycle where one person does something in a relationship. Let's say, he does something that I perceive to be unloving, so then I deserve to be disrespectful back, don't I? You end up getting in this spiral of your relationship. Somewhere, someplace, somebody has got to stop that spiral – and that is whoever is most emotionally mature at that particular moment. Then stop it, just stop it, and either offer unconditional love or unconditional respect. You have to figure out what your partner needs. I'll replay another great book, The Five Love Languages. You have to figure out how your mate is wired and then start responding in a way that respects who they are.

Mike: I'm sitting her wondering if there is ever a moment when I'm more emotionally mature.

Carolyn: Yes.

Mike: There really is?

Carolyn:  Last night.

Mike:  Really? What happened?

Carolyn:  Oh, we're not going to go there right now.

Mike: Okay. But I really was…

Carolyn: You pushed a button.

Mike:  I did? But I was more emotionally mature?

Carolyn: Well, eventually. This takes a lifetime of practice and you get better at it as you go along.

Mike: One of the things I want to point out is that when we never make this commitment where God is really forming each of our characters, and we move on to another relationship, you have to repeat the whole thing over - and repeat . . . If it takes 35 years to get this far, why do you want to keep repeating it? The young woman also asked me, "What do you think about where it says wives submit to your husbands?" I said, "Come this weekend, my wife is going to talk about that." She said, "Well, I think wives should submit to their husbands, but it also means that the husband - I think we've got to be equal." Which we have always done. I don't tell her some things a lot of times, such as she will ask me who I'm voting for and I say, "I don't want to tell you because I don't want to influence you." I want her to be a thinking individual, on her own. She can disagree with me on who to vote for or whatever. I trust her faith, the more basic kind of things in her relationships with people. But this young woman also said, "When I get married some day, I want my husband to be the spiritual leader of the home." It is based on verse 21 about submit to one another in the fear of Christ. Look at verse 25, especially men, "Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." In other words, men, we have to continually be self-sacrificing, giving ourselves up for our wives and family. It is so powerful when the man is the one who is leading in the family in the passionate pursuit of God's purpose – that's what husbands and dads do. We're leading the passionate pursuit of God's purpose and you'll see in verse 26, it says it sanctifies your home. That means it cleanses or creates healing in your home and that means healthy children with healthy values. That happens when a man leads in the passionate pursuit of God's purpose – not the woman, but the man. Men, not only does it result in this sanctification, cleansing or health of our home, it gives us the respect that we desire. That's where the respect comes from. You can lead spiritually in your home and still screw up a lot, like apparently I did last night.

Carolyn: You didn't even know it?

Mike:  I don't even remember last night! But, that's amazing that she said to me that sometimes I'm emotionally more mature. Men, sometimes we do this, we think that our wives get it more right than we do. I know I do. When she just told me that, it picked me up a little bit. That was good. Carolyn, I want to do word association with you. I'm going to name a word, and you talk about what that means in marriage and for our marriage. First word: faith.

Carolyn: Faith is trusting God to work in all situations. You saw it on the video that years ago I was looking for the light at the end of the tunnel and all I knew was Jesus, and that somehow God had put us together, and somehow God was going to make it work. Faith is like putting that picture in your mind of where God can take you and just trusting God to do it.

Mike: You've also told me that in marriage, a lot of times there is no feeling. In those times, you have to go in faith.

Carolyn: Feelings really are very fickle, like I could have pepperoni pizza tonight and have heartburn and think, I don't love you any more. Some things can set you off and so you cannot depend on feelings, but God is constant, faith is constant, regardless of how you feel.

Mike: Next word: loneliness.

Carolyn: Loneliness is huge. Sometimes singles have shared with me about loneliness, and there is loneliness in marriage as well. In fact, I think sometimes it's the deepest kind of loneliness because, as a single, you thought this partner was going to provide for you, that you wouldn't be lonely any more. When you're not on the same wavelength, there is a deep loneliness. When you're too busy for each other, there is a deep loneliness. When you retreat to your respective corners and not work out conflict, there is a deep loneliness.

Mike: So, are you ever lonely in our marriage now?

Carolyn: Sure. Last night. No! Just kidding! I think God allows loneliness because otherwise we could possibly look to our spouse as the source of security, for everything, and that is only from God, and so I think there are times when God allows us to feel separate so that we really look to him.

Mike: Next word: fulfillment.

Carolyn: I think fulfillment is knowing that you are right where you were called to be. That this is what God had designed for you. I think of baseball, you know baseball and us. I love baseball too. I think of days, like one spring day when we were sitting in lawn chairs behind the back stop, and watching Jonathan do his thing. I was sitting next to this guy (Mike) thinking, "I really love this man." He has invested so much in me and my children. I can get Kristen on the phone and do play-by-plays with her.  He was up to bat, and she would go, "Yeah, Slaughter!" I was sitting there thinking, "It doesn't get better than this. This is what God has provided." It just is good.

Mike: I want to say, as a husband, no matter how many things I know that I might still be immature in and how I mess up, is that my family comes before my work. My family comes before you - the congregation. It took until almost 16 years ago to make that kind of commitment. But, wow, the difference that makes in a home where people are willing to give up promotions or whatever because they know the most important job or gift that we have is the gift of influencing our children - which is an incredible product of God bringing two people together. Okay, I'll say parenting.

Carolyn: Parenting is an awesome responsibility. It is one of the greatest joys in life. It's one of the greatest frustrations in life. And what I know is that it took both of us. It still is taking both of us because I don't think it ever really ends. Each of us contributes unique qualities, like where I'm weak, you're strong; where you're weak, I'm strong. I think we together made pretty healthy kids. I called Kristen and said, "What do you think about parenting? What should I say about parenting?" She said, "Well, it's a good thing we had Dad and his gift of irritation or we would've gotten away with way too much. But it's a good thing we had you, Mom, and your empathy or we would never have been allowed out of the house."

Mike: Okay, here's another one: humor.

Carolyn: Humor is the saving grace of many days is all I can say. We've gotten in situations where I will take things so seriously, and I'll get upset and I'll worry about what people think, and Michael will say, "You gotta laugh about it, C'mon, you just gotta laugh about it. Admit it, it's funny."

Mike: We've sat in churches before and been in the front row, and I'll know what she's thinking, and I'll see her with her hand to her face, and I'll start poking her in the side to get her laughing. It's fun! Next word: adventure.

Carolyn: I tend to be someone who likes safety, I don't ripple the waters too much, and so God gave me this man who is always doing the unexpected. So, you truly have made life interesting and fun. I probably would never have left Tipp City, just would've sat here and been perfectly content, but you've made me do things that I would never have thought to do. Like when we took the kids to Europe for five weeks to serve for one summer in a church and got to do all kinds of fun side trips as a result. Another time, we did the five weeks in Philadelphia. I was, "Oh, what's the church going to think? Oh, my gosh." Michael said, "I don't care what they think." It was so fun! It's during the adventure times that really you (Michael) tend to get me alone up close, and we tend to reconnect. But I have to say, Michael, every day is an adventure with you.

Mike: Good. Well, we wanted to ask someone else – Deb and Walt Toney right here in the front row. Deb and Walt, how long have you been married?

Deb: Twenty-seven years.

Mike: Twenty-seven years; that's a long time. So, as Carolyn and I were talking, what were the things to which you guys related?

Walt: I think we're blessed beyond belief. You guys have been through a lot, you really have, and I guess you're an inspiration, knowing what you have gone through and with God on your side, it sounds like you've made it through a lot of really tough times. As I read some of the scriptures this week in the TJ and leading up to this weekend, that "blessed, beloved wife" and all that really hit home with me. I love Debbie from the bottom of my heart and I have all the adventure and all the wonderful things anybody could possibly ask for. The things that you two talked about, God has removed a lot of those from our life and I don't know why. Really, the only issue I have is that once in a while I just rein her back in because she gets out of control.

Mike: Is that true?

Deb: Yes, that's true.

Mike: In 27 years, did you ever have the ups and downs like Carolyn and I have had?  

Deb: Not really, no. We've been blessed.

Carolyn: There are people out there, Michael, who have that experience.

Mike: I didn't know this until now. I thought all marriage was real hard; that's just what I thought.

Deb: I still get excited when he walks back into the office. He has stepped out for ten minutes and when I hear him coming back in, I get excited.

Walt: In being totally fair, actually Deb and I were both married twice before, so, probably without God on our side, we went through some of those things and maybe didn't stick it out when we could've, would've, should've or whatever, but I feel that I am with the mate that I was meant to be with and I believe that Debbie feels the same way.

Mike: And you guys work together all day, in the same office, facing each other at the desk. Let me ask you a question, because I'm interested in this. What kinds of things are important to make you still be excited after 27 years?

Deb: Trust and integrity, definitely. He still talks to strangers about me like I am a princess. I'll hear him; he'll be in the other room talking awesome things about me. I don't know why he does that, it's just awesome though, and I love him and trust him so much.

Mike: That is what God has intended, as we talked about last week, before we can be naked and unashamed, there has to be one person totally committed to us who will always be telling us, "No, you are fearfully and wonderfully made." And like last week I was saying it still amazes me that I have to tell Carolyn it's not because I'm a good Christian, but I want Carolyn. Carolyn is the person that I would choose. If I was not married to Carolyn, she is the person I would choose today, and I can't believe that God gave me someone like her. It is why it is worth getting up at 2:30 in the morning with the dog if that's what she interprets as love. I think what builds a relationship is what the other person sees as important in love. "Husbands, love your wife and sacrificially give yourself to your wife as Christ loves the church and gives himself for the church."

One of the things I want to say is probably about half the people in this room are single, but statistics tell us that 87% of the single people, including those who are over 60, will be married again. So, what we want to do is to think, even if you are a single person, what are the things that create real intimacy in a relationship? Carolyn and I want to give hope to those of you who feel nothing for each other. At year 20, when we made a commitment until death do us part, we didn't even know if we liked each other. But we began to act as if we loved each other, and Jesus resurrects dead marriages when two people are willing to come together and act by faith. So after 20 years, when we felt dead in our marriage, that was 16 years ago, we experienced resurrection because we were willing to trust Jesus, by faith, to do a resurrection in our relationship.

Next week, we're going to talk about purposeful parenting; and, in two weeks, we're going to talk about broken promises, what happens when there's been adultery, divorce, etc. We're going to talk about what the Bible teaches about divorce - can I get remarried? We're going to focus on forgiveness. It's going to be a very important two weeks.

I want to pray for our marriages and I'm going to ask Carolyn, will you pray for marriages for healing, for strength, for protection?  

Carolyn: Father, we come before You on behalf of the marriages represented here and also the future marriages represented here, that You would be Lord in every way. That You would be Lord of each individual person in a relationship and that You would be Lord of that relationship. I pray, Lord, for a willingness on each person's part to make themselves available to Your Spirit to learn what is it about this person that I love that I need to know and how can I better love and respect this person. I give You thanks, Lord, for Your word and how You intend it, not for bondage, but for freedom, and if we simply relinquish ourselves to You, You show us every step of the way. Thank You, Father, for resurrections. Thank You for new beginnings. And we give You the praise because it is all because of You. In Jesus' name. Amen.